MPs clash in fiery Commons debate over gun law reform

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Wednesday, December 22, 2010
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This is Derbyshire

​FIERCE debating over reform of the UK’s gun laws has seen Labour and Conservative MPs from the city and county locking horns in Parliament.

Derby North’s Labour MP Chris Williamson advocated a complete ban on all firearms, whereas Tory South Derbyshire MP Heather Wheeler – a shotgun owner herself – called for shooting as a sport to be protected.

Their comments were made as Parliament’s Home Affairs Select Committee released a key report warning that under current laws it was too easy for criminals to get hold of firearms.

The report also blamed “gaps” in legislation for allowing lone gunman Derrick Bird – who had previous criminal convictions – to gain access to a firearm which he used to kill 12 people in Cumbria earlier this year. During the debate Mr Williamson launched a direct assault on legal gun ownership, listing killing sprees carried out by lawful gun owners in recent years.

He said: “The House should consider the sobering thought that back in 1987, when Michael Ryan was indulging in a massacre in Hungerford killing 17 people and injuring 15 others, Thomas Hamilton was seen to be a fit and proper person to hold a firearms certificate.

“Yet we know the tragic consequences in 1996 in Dunblane, where Thomas Hamilton killed 18 people and injured 15 others. When Thomas Hamilton was indulging in that killing spree Derrick Bird in Cumbria was deemed a fit and proper person.”

Mr Williamson said his view was that there should be a complete ban on firearms in the UK, or at least a ban on people holding guns in their own homes.

But Mrs Wheeler hit back, accusing Mr Williamson of being a “city dweller”, suggesting he did not understand the issue – comments which riled the city MP, making him stand up and refute the idea.

She said: “I come to this debate as a holder of a shotgun licence and the owner of a shotgun.

“I’m also very proud that we in South Derbyshire have one of the finest rifle clubs, at Swadlincote, and excellent cadet forces and shooting clubs at Newton Solney.”

Mrs Wheeler argued that shooting was an important part of the local economy and the country’s sporting heritage.

“It is absolutely frightening that the pressure and power groups almost seem to be trying to put down great history, important parts of the economy and sporting tradition of this country,” she added at the debate. on Monday (20/12).

“None of that must change because of tragic incidents that take place.”

Ministers will now have to respond to the committee’s report in the new year.

newsdesk@derbytelegraph.co.uk

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  • Profile image for This is Derbyshire

    by Tim Miller, Kent, WA. U.S.A.

    Wednesday, December 29 2010, 6:18PM

    “Another prime example of a government ensuring the majorities rights are limited on the basis of actions carried out by a group in the minority. A true travesty I hope for all in the UK things do not get more restrictive.”

  • Profile image for This is Derbyshire

    by TexasCH, Texas

    Sunday, December 26 2010, 2:00AM

    “RDanneskjold, USA

    I agree with you 100%. I am an amateur WWII historian. My father was at Normandy.

    At one time I had great respect for British courage and tenacity. It appears however that ¿their greatest hour¿ has long since passed.

    They don¿t seem to understand that the problem with crime is not with the weapon. The problem is that too many parents are not raising children and young adults with a sense of respect for laws and the rights of other people.

    If you hand any person any weapon it will not instantly change that person¿s character. The law abiding civilized person will still be law abiding and civilized. The criminal will still be a criminal. If a criminal wants to hurt or kill others he/she will find or make a weapon. By banning guns, pointed kitchen knives, or other potential weapons, you will only succeed in totally disarming the law abiding, civilized segment of society. This will make it easier for the criminal to control his/her victims.

    When I got my Concealed Handgun License, it did not change me. I will still help others when I can. I am still polite and show respect to people that show me respect. Everyone else I know that have a CHL are the same.

    I believe I am wasting my time and words however. Too many people will believe what they want to believe no matter what the facts are.”

  • Profile image for This is Derbyshire

    by RDanneskjold, USA

    Friday, December 24 2010, 7:35PM

    “TexasCHL: Re: ¿MinorChord¿ and that other IGNORANUS ¿anomanous, bramcote¿:
    As I mentioned previously, you¿ll get no response from them, as TRUTH, LOGIC & COMMON SENSE does not favor their arguments. I¿m a former UK resident & used to have a lot of respect for the British. My father, former RAF Spitfire pilot who flew in the Battle of Briton agreed with Churchill: They are a people who will ¿Never surrender. Never give up¿. But that was then. This is now. And the British, who once showed the world they had courage & backbone, now surrender to common street thugs & give up their most basic right, that of personal safety, to Liberal MPs, who believe criminals have more rights than law abiding citizens. Brits have now become docile sheep, blindly following laws that place their safety & that of their families in jeopardy. It¿s hard to understand what¿s happened to these once courageous people over the past 70 years; whose ¿Finest Hour¿ is now an almost forgotten foot note in history.”

  • Profile image for This is Derbyshire

    by RDanneskjold, USA

    Friday, December 24 2010, 7:32PM

    “TexasCHL: Re: ¿MinorChord¿ & that other IGNORANUS ¿anomanous, bramcote¿:

    As I mentioned previously, you¿ll get no response from them, as TRUTH, LOGIC & COMMON SENSE does not favor their arguments. I¿m a former UK resident & used to have a lot of respect for the British. My father, former RAF Spitfire pilot who flew in the Battle of Briton agreed with Churchill: They are a people who will ¿Never surrender. Never give up¿. But that was then. This is now. And the British, who once showed the world they had courage & backbone, now surrender to common street thugs & give up their most basic right, that of personal safety, to Liberal MPs, who believe criminals have more rights than law abiding citizens. Brits have now become docile sheep, blindly following laws that place their safety & that of their families in jeopardy. It¿s hard to understand what¿s happened to these once courageous people over the past 70 years; whose ¿Finest Hour¿ is now an almost forgotten foot note in history.”

  • Profile image for This is Derbyshire

    by TexasCHL, Texas

    Friday, December 24 2010, 4:36PM

    “Major Chord

    How much time have you spent in the U.S. and how many U.S. citizens to you know with Concealed Handgun Licenses? It seems to me you are making unfounded assumptions based on how YOU would act if given the opportunity to legally carry a handgun.

    Most of the Concealed Carry License (CHL) holders I know (including myself) have become LESS likely to provoke an encounter with others. They no longer ¿flip people off¿ that are rude aggressive drivers and they avoid verbal confrontations with people in stores because they know how serious a physical confrontation could become.

    The percentage of CHL holders convicted of a crime in Texas in 2007 was 0.2612%. This was the last year shown. It is a shame the honest law abiding people in the UK cannot be trusted to have guns to protect themselves, but then I saw an article in the Thursday, 26 May, 2005 BBC news where some people in the UK are calling for kitchen knife control.

    I truly regret seeing the sorry state of the UK.”

  • Profile image for This is Derbyshire

    by TexasCHL, Texas

    Friday, December 24 2010, 4:31PM

    “Major Chord

    How much time have you spent in the U.S. and how many U.S. citizens to you know with Concealed Handgun Licenses? It seems to me you are making unfounded assumptions based on how YOU would act if given the opportunity to legally carry a handgun.

    Most of the Concealed Carry License (CHL) holders I know (including myself) have become LESS likely to provoke an encounter with others. They no longer ¿flip people off¿ that are rude aggressive drivers and they avoid verbal confrontations with people in stores because they know how serious a physical confrontation could become.

    The percentage of CHL holders convicted of a crime in Texas in 2007 was 0.2612%. This was the last year shown. It is a shame the honest law abiding people in the UK cannot be trusted to have guns to protect themselves, but then I saw an article in the Thursday, 26 May, 2005 BBC news where some people in the UK are calling for kitchen knife control.

    I truly regret seeing the sorry state of the UK.”

  • Profile image for This is Derbyshire

    by Alan, USA

    Friday, December 24 2010, 1:38AM

    “RDanneskjold---Thank You Sir! I know exactly what you mean about Minor Chord. A Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to you and yours, and to all of you in the UK.”

  • Profile image for This is Derbyshire

    by RDanneskjold, USA

    Friday, December 24 2010, 12:03AM

    “Alan,
    Excellent comments re: "Minor" Chord.
    But don;t hold your breath for his response. Liberals, regardless of which side of the Atlantic they're from, have difficulty dealing with FACTS. They just cant handle the TRUTH.
    They suffer from a disease common to many Liberals, know as "RCI", (Recto - Cranial Inversion). They have their heads buried so far up into Rectal Deprivation that they'll never see the light.”

  • Profile image for This is Derbyshire

    by Alan, United States

    Thursday, December 23 2010, 7:25PM

    “Major Chord----England has probabaly the most restrictive gun laws of any developed country. That being said, WHY has Englands' violent crime rate surpassed that of the US?

    The majority of gun deaths here are suicides, about 56%, and someone that is truly determined to end their life will find a way, gun or no gun. The majority of intentional shootings are usually between criminals.

    When you legally carry a handgun here, that person is held to what the law calls "a higher standard of care". That means the person legally carrying it can be charged with a crime if they use their weapon irresponsibly; i.e. using their weapon to intimidate (bullying), flashing it around, etc. The vast majority of us carry concealed; you'd never know we are armed, we don't go around flashing them.

    The states with the most restrictive gun laws also have the HIGHEST rates of violent crime. Gun ownership in the US is at an all-time high, and violent crime is at a 30-year LOW; how did THAT happen? The FBI website reports that legally owned guns are used to successfully stop about 750,000 violent crimes every year in the US, and that number is thought to be a low estimate. The Texas Deparment of Public Safety keeps data on those who have carry permits, and has found that gun permit holders are the most law-abiding demographic of the population. Those of us that carry legally take this responsibility very seriously.

    When we are in what YOU call "a bullying situation" YOU claim we "assume a bullying superiority". This is the opposite of the facts; our objective is to avoid these situations to begin with, and to only use our weapons when our life, or the life of a loved one or innocent is in danger. For us to escalate a confrontation to the point where we would use our weapons and we shot someone, when we could have disengaged from the confrontation, would result in us being charged with at least manslaughter; this can mean over 30 years in prison. The law is clear on when deadly force is appropriate.

    Your comments indicate that you have no idea of the facts when it comes to guns and those of us who legally own and carry them. I suggest you ask your own government officials why your violent crime rate has SURPASSED the violent crime rate here in the US, in spite of the fact that gun ownership in your country is almost non-existant, while we in the US are very well armed. As a matter of fact, the US isn't even in the top 20 most violent countries in the developed world, while either Scotland or Northern Ireland was listed as the NUMBER ONE country where one would was most likely to be the victim of a violent crime, I'll recheck the stats on that one.

    I live about 30 miles southeast of Chicago in Northwest Indiana; in our state, we can legally carry handguns in the open, or concealed. The state of Illinois where Chicago is located prohibits its citizens from carrying a handgun. Can you explain to us why Illinois and Chicago have a HIGHER violent crime and HIGHER gun crime rate than we do? In my small city of 30,000 residents, about 1 in every 12 adults holds a License To Carry a Handgun; with so many of us carrying handguns, can you please explain why we haven't had a shooting here in nearly 23 YEARS?”

  • Profile image for This is Derbyshire

    by RDanneskjold, USA

    Thursday, December 23 2010, 6:11PM

    “Major Chord, Littleover writes: ¿'¿..the right to bear arms' brings with it a smug righteousness that is dangerous, as such 'freedom' seems to condone threatening anyone who crosses you¿...¿
    ------------------- ---------------------- -----------------------
    Major Chord is correct. Our Right to bear arms Does bring a ¿dangerous smug righteousness¿¿.
    Dangerous to Dirt Bags. And there are a lot of them, both is the US & in the UK. The difference is that in the US we have Half a BILLION guns in civilian hands. With this many guns, anyone has access to them. And that reality aint gonna disappear. So in the US we must deal with this reality. That means allowing civilians the right to keep & bear arms. And I refuse to give up that right when I work in the UK, a nation with the highest rate of street crime in Western Europe, now surpassing the US.”

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